The reason I have always considered the fetus a person – a significantly dependent person, but a person nonetheless -, is that I have never been able to find a non-arbitrary point at which the fetus could possibly acquire personhood. If birth is said to be the criterion, preemies acquire personhood at the same developmental stage hat those who could be born at full term, do not yet possess personhood yet. And if some arbitrary ability – such as the ability to think or feel – is used, there is always the risk that some born persons do not meet this criterion. Even the presence of a cerebral cortex at twelve weeks gestation – except when the fetus is anencephalic – becomes arbitrary here.
The criterion used in the Netherlands to guide abortion law, is somewhat complicated. According to the letter of the law, viability is the point at which no abortions can be performed anymore. This makes sense, in that, once a baby/fetus is viable outside the womb, there is no longer a need to kill them to relieve the pregnant person of the discomfort or threat of gestating.
However, where our law becomes complicated, is that it restricts abortion to the first 21 weeks of gestation. That used to be 24 weeks, but it was determined that babies born at 22 weeks, can survive. Now that seems alright, except that babies born at 22 weeks are not viable in the Netherlands. That is, neonatology has decided it will not resuscitate or treat babies born before 25 weeks gestation – and every baby born at this gestational age, will need these. Yet abortion law has decided that babies are viable by 22 weeks. Who is right here: abortion legislators or neonatologists? Some of my readers may know that I’d side with the abortion legislators here, as I am a strong advocate for the treatment of premature infants regardless of gestational age. However, as long as no neonatoligist in the Netherlands is going to treat babies born at 22-24 weeks, the limbo remains.
Abortion law technically right – babies born at 22 weeks can survive.
But extremely premature babies who do survive quite likely to have a disability (according to UK study, only 20% had no problems, 22% *severe* disability, the rest somewhere between): http://is.gd/bXxok
And then there are the cost arguments (both cost to save extremely prem babies in the first place, and cost of lifetime care for those who are significantly disabled).
Throw in societal perceptions re the value of people with disabilities and what our quality of life is/can be, and… well, that’s where the neonatalogists are coming from.
“If birth is said to be the criterion, preemies acquire personhood at the same developmental stage hat those who could be born at full term, do not yet possess personhood yet.”
So? There’s still a gigantic difference between being embedded inside a woman or girl’s body and being outside a woman or girl’s body.
at the moment it stops its parasitic existence off another persons body
@ kisarita: Are you serious about comparing fetuses to parasites? That is disrespectful no matter how unwanted the fetus.
“If birth is said to be the criterion, preemies acquire personhood at the same developmental stage hat those who could be born at full term, do not yet possess personhood yet.”
That’s only arbitrary if you dismiss the whose entire woman or girl surrounding the fetus as arbitrary.
oops, typo: that should be “,,,*whole* entire woman or girl…”
My Twin sons were born premature at gestational age of 27 & 1/2 weeks, Baby A weighed 3.2 pounds and Baby B weighed 3.12 pounds. Put them together and you have the weight of 1 “normal” full-term Healthy Baby:-) Such is not life.—I found out early that I was having twins, after the shock wore off–(still hasn’t actually-lol.)…I ran/ drove to the big book stores and bought ABOUT 5-10 big books on Twins, Birth, Multiples, etc. I read and read and read and THEN…threw away/ put away those books, they were SO darned Scary. On and On about all the many many many problems that can happen, and what they mean, and what to do about these myriad of practically uncontrollable tragedy’s should they occur…SUCH as a Premature Birth! BAD BAD BAD. The earlier they are born, of course, the sicker they usually are! On and ON. Every book seemed to say the same thing/ elude to this. All books seemed to say, generally speaking the longer they inside you/ me–the fatter they get (fat= healthy in the BABY World). and the fatter you plump them up—especially when carrying multiples–they better chance they will be “healthy” when they are born, (so i ate and ate/ healthy) and since MOST Twins/ multiple births are KNOWN to come early— twins generally arrive around 37-38 weeks gestation= is considered a normal birth, whereas 40 weeks is a full-term birth for a “singleton” baby (1 baby inside). So, I had a feeling/ knowledge mine might/ probably will come early/ at least earlier than 39-40 weeks…and at 26 weeks, felt funny, so drove myself an hour back to my local hospital from visiting my mother’s house, she drove along home with me—trying to persuade me to stop at her local hospital–but, I wasn;t in pain–so I kept driving to get closer to my home and famaliar hospital….thinking it was braxton-hicks?/ false labor…false alarm—1st time mom overly-cautious—turns out nope! I was in labor and barely knew it—weird! but, they admit me and AND AND AND ALL I could do was CRY CRY CRY! BCUZ those books did say, the earlier they come out—the WAY MORE PROBLEMS THEY ARE LIKELY TO HAVE RIGHT THEN AND FOR MANY MANY YEARS TO COME, POSSIBLY/ NO PROBABLY! So, I begged and begged every, single nurse I saw—do ANYTHING! Do Everything you can think of—to keep them inside my belly! Don’t want them so sick and sick and possibly dieing or life-long medical and every other kind of problem—I can’t fix. They tried—used medicines, worked for a week or so, in there- until I think a young, UN-smart nurse messed up MY daily Meds to slow babies down and make them happy to stay inside. and they started to come on out 1 morning—AND then, that was that—the NEXT FIVE?+ weeks in the NICU (neo-natal intensive care unit), tiny tiny tiny, wires, cords, tubes, incubators, needles, charts, medicines, conversations for nurses and doctors, too little to hold for weeks and weeks and weeks, only touch a finger or leg through a hole in box, they have to eat, (pumping) – (eat/ drink through gavage tubeing–Yuck, weird, sad, strange, scarry, sad sad sad—hold it up in the air anyway to feel helpful, involved ), they have to gain weight, they have to be able to maintain their own body temperature on their own, they have to do this and that, it takes long time—- “A DAY IN UTERO IS LIKE A WEEK OUT IN THE WORLD HERE”…THEY SHOULDA STAYED INSIDE./ INDOORS….FIRST 1-2-3-4-5- YEARS, EVERY SINGLE THING/ MILESTONE THAT BABIES DO/ CAN DO/ SHOULD DO/ PEDIATRICIANS MONITOR THAT THEY ARE DOING—ON TIME, WAS DONE LATE, LATE, LATE, MUCH WORRY, WORRY WORRY, AT HOME, PHYSICAL THERAPYS GIVEN FIRST 1-2 YEARS, AT HOME SPEECH THERAPYS GIVEN FIRST FEW YEARS, OCCUPATIONAL THERAPYS AT HOME FOR FIRST COUPLE YEARS. **** 5-6 Medications around the clock, (reglan, zantac, iron for anemia, mutli-vitamin, ?—liquid caffiene at some point for bad apnea for one of them,) that’s 24-7-365 DAYS A YEAR, FOR THE FIRST 1-2 YEARS, FOR EACH/ BOTH BABY. HARD HARD HARD! Tiring, tiring, tiring. traumatic for all. BOTH Babies sent home from hospital on Heart Smart MOnitors for Sleep Apnea, ‘cus they just weren’t fully developed, their brains kept forgetting to tell their little, tiny hearts to keep beating, SO their hearts kept forgetting and THEN THE HEART MONITORS SIRENS/ ALARMS WOULD GO OFF LIKE CRAZY!!! wORST SOUND OF MY LIFE! tHEIRS TOO. The sound of YOUR BABY that has stopped breathing/ heart stopped beating! JEsus! WHO CAN do this? Hurry hurry hurry, race over, touch/ tap their toe, hand, leg, —little jiggle, little movement, “wake-up!” Move-around!” Keep beating! Keep living!” come on! come ON! please please please! Dont even realize you are practically Holding your breath! Waiting! THINK! What else was I suppose to do here???! SH IT! —– ohhhhhhh, OK—it;s working. OH Thank GOD. see movement. see chest rising and falling. hear crying. crying! — DARN.! Just got them to sleep couple minutes ago. NOW- woke them UP! CRAP! OK – now – go rock them, change them, feed them, burp them, whatever—try to get them back to sleep —even though them sleeping, is like waiting for THOSE Horrific Alarms to start again—worst sounds of your life! well…..anyway…THIS IS the crazy, hard, sad, scary, minute-to-minute “life”/ Lives of Preemies, CANT leave the house for a YEAR—Except to the doctors offices, because their immune sysytem is “Weak/ COmpromised” and a cold to you or me–IS LIKE Pneumonia/ death to them!”….RSV shots EVERY month, by “at- home visiting Preemie nurse”, to make strong/ decrease risk of getting terrible killing virus to preemies-RSV!, only take them out during 1st year to visit THEIR Cardiologists, 1-2 times a week, for first few months, then, slowly….go longer betweeen appointments…(little TO NO Visitors to see them,—and any of them MUST WEAR MASKS to prevent germs spreading/ colds/ death) plus, pediatrician lots – for immunizations (worry about those shots for several reasons), then, baby eye doctor to check for possible blindness or any other sight/ visual problems known to happen in/ for preemies-JEez! then, Gastro—if they have any stomach/ food/ bowel issues–yikes! Yup! SO…..preemies, are tough, tough tough….to handle, to keep “alive”, to raise, …numerous developmental problems are likely/ possible/ probable—pick a word choice there?!? (maybe ? $100,000+ for that Preemie Birth/ NICU STAY?) Doubt that was even everything, anyway. Small glimpse of 27 weeks preemie. (twins). BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT—HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY TO HAVE THEM IN MY LIFE, NO MATTER WHAT. NO MATTER ALL THAT. TRUELY TRUELY TRUELY. BUT BUT BUT, UNDERSTAND NEONATOLOGISTS POINT! QUALITY OF LIFE—-THINK I HAVE ACTUALLY EARNED THE RIGHT, SO TO SPEAK, FROM MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCES, OF COURSE, AND THERE IS SOMETHING TO BE SAID FOR AND THOUGHT ABOUT…and CONSIDERED—FOR EVERYONE—BABY BABY BABY, MOMMA, MOMMA, DADA-(USUALLY THEIR FIRST WORD-DADA:-) —INVOLVED….THE EARLIER BORN —THE SICKER —MORE LIKELY TO DIE, MORE LIKELY TO SUFFER, MORE LIFELY TO STRUGGLE, BE IN PAIN, (ALMOST) UNBEARABLE TO WATCH YOUR TEENY TINY BABY IN PAIN AND U CAN’T DO CRAP TO FIX IT., CAN NOT STOP THE PAIN, STOP THE STRUGGLE, STOP THE AGONY….ONLY TIME.. MAY OR MAY NOT HELP, AND DOCTORS, NURSES, —–love and prayers— (Sounds like from rading above posts—that IF mine had come out/ been born 2 weeks earlier — in the Netherlands—the Netherland doctors would not have used medical devices/ procedures to save them/ attempt to keep them alive…) (can’t say that sits perfectly well with me off hand but on the other hand,if a day in utero- is like a week out here…that would have made mine like what –even smaller and more sickly and more tiny and UNDER-developed and destitute for a life-time of what??? just breathing, just sitting around maybe blind, maybe some tiny vision, maybe in wheelchair, maybe a vegetable, maybe crippled, maybe arms or legs dont work, maybe never talk, never, think, never walk, MAYBE all of that?! maybe be kept alive a few days, weeks, months by medical devices, and doctors. nurses, then, off to a life of what?! ummmmm….:-(